tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post2896444520034062784..comments2023-07-30T08:37:02.307-07:00Comments on The Leibowitz Society: Response to ScottLeibowitz Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05420328289777540352noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post-39289629247299568282010-11-26T11:25:30.626-08:002010-11-26T11:25:30.626-08:00Scott,
I don't think I've ever had anyone...Scott,<br /><br />I don't think I've ever had anyone say that a response from me was an honor. :) Most of what you left in your original comments seemed like they were questions and thoughts that other people might want to voice but didn't want to post themselves.<br /><br />I agree that data retrieval is an iffy thing at best and I would want to use it as a supplement to the main focus of stored printed material.<br /><br />I'm not really sure how I feel about the retreat of humanity to smaller areas or sites and leaving the rest of the planet open for most other species. I think that the issue will probably be decided as reduced resources, agricultural output, etc, reverse the trend of people living miles and miles from any center of population. In the future, clearly humanity needs to return to making progress, with the intent of expanding first into space, then the stars, or will otherwise face extinction. I'm sure someone will thinking "Well, when the heat death of the universe occurs, humanity will die out at that point anyway." Maybe, I don't know. It's a ways off and I think we need to work on getting humanity through the next Dark Age first.<br /><br />As far as the reaction of non-prepared people to prepared people goes, I would agree with the speculation that there might be more than a little discord. At some point soon, I'm going to post some more columns on relevant points raised in Anathem and I'll cover some insights the book has on this topic. <br /><br />Interesting point about the Mercer Museum (I took a look at the web page). Probably the more valuable thing to do at this point, instead of trying to anticipate a need for guards for a collection of old tools, is to instead make some visits and take some photographs and perhaps share the research in a blog, as well as maybe looking at building reproductions. I don't know if any currently exist, but it would be a great help for people who are looking at a pre-oil type of existence. I know that there are bodies of research on the subject, but I think that researchers are often looking at the subject more from an academic perspective than a practical one.<br /><br />-JohnLeibowitz Societyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420328289777540352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post-79322639643101975852010-11-23T12:03:31.626-08:002010-11-23T12:03:31.626-08:00One more thing ...
While I am probably getting wa...One more thing ...<br /><br />While I am probably getting way ahead of where we should spend our time (i.e., you are correct that most of our efforts should be spent gathering the info ), your answer to my question of “Should we gather post- or during-the-crash?” was interesting. I think your Monastery idea makes the most sense, since it really is “tried and true” – i.e., the previous dark age. <br /><br />Let us face it – there are very few of us “Like-minded people” - 99.999% of Americans would think we were nuts, and would screamingly red-in-the-face insist that we are “nuts” … right up until the collapse (and maybe after). Indeed, there may be blowback against those who had seen it coming and had prepared, with we few being illogically accused of wishing for or even causing the breakdown. So your monastery idea has merit, including the part involving the actual form of the monastery as a walled fortresses, as they were during the previous dark age. Also, the monks of old (both European and Oriental) often found it necessary to be skilled in armed (or un-armed) combat, so you chose a good parallel. <br /><br />A slight tangent: As my signature states, I live in Bucks County, PA, and one of its treasures is the Mercer Museum. Too make a long story short, around the turn of the century (i.e., 1900), a true scholar and scientist saw that many of the pre-industrial tools were being discarded, and collected an enormous amount of them in his “Mercer Museum”. Since I think both this blog and Kunstler’s are correct, and we are going back to “a world made by hand”, this building, which is probably the largest collection of pre-industrial tools in the world, is of critical importance. (Web site: http://www.mercermuseum.org/museum_collections.htm). I am reminded that after the fall of Sadaam, one of the many tragedies that occurred in Iraq was that most of the museums, housing very ancient works of art, were looted, and many of the objects were destroyed or lost. Maybe my biggest contribution to the Leibowitz society (and to the future of humanity) is to do my best to see that the Mercer Museum doesn’t fall to similar looting/destruction.<br /><br />Thank you again,<br /><br />Scott in Bucks CountyScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16884723062590952056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post-32625833479759183072010-11-23T12:00:47.095-08:002010-11-23T12:00:47.095-08:00As for me, as I said above, I am an computer guy a...As for me, as I said above, I am an computer guy and have been for 20+ years, but believe it or not, my undergraduate study was in agriculture, and especially “small-scale” agriculture. Quickly realizing that being a small-scale agriculture producer in the mid-80’s was to sign up for a quick path to the poor house, I got a Master’s degree in Statistics, and have been sitting at a desk ever since. <br /><br />I fully support (and wish to continue to support in the future) the main goal of this site/blog: to preserve as much human knowledge as possible for the future. If I had one additional wish for the future, it would be this:<br /><br />Current human society has human development (in all of its forms) spreading across most of the landscape, with a few scattered and token parks/national forests/wildlife sanctuaries. I would like whatever future human society that arises to be the opposite – in other words, we the human race would be less selfish and better stewards of the earth, and not crowd out all of the other species. The net result would be very concentrated centers of human habitation (hopefully as beautiful and magical as possible), and our farming and other activities would never spread out to cover the landscape, as is the case now. At least half of the planet would be a “wildlife sanctuary” – we owe it to the other species.<br /><br />Thank you again,<br /><br />Scott in Bucks CountyScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16884723062590952056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post-13646875045940878252010-11-23T11:59:41.410-08:002010-11-23T11:59:41.410-08:00While I am probably getting way ahead of where we ...While I am probably getting way ahead of where we should spend our time (i.e., you are correct that most of our efforts should be spent gathering the info ), your answer to my question of “Should we gather post- or during-the-crash?” was interesting. I think your Monastery idea makes the most sense, since it really is “tried and true” – i.e., the previous dark age. <br /><br />Let us face it – there are very few of us “Like-minded people” - 99.999% of Americans would think we were nuts, and would screamingly red-in-the-face insist that we are “nuts” … right up until the collapse (and maybe after). Indeed, there may be blowback against those who had seen it coming and had prepared, with we few being illogically accused of wishing for or even causing the breakdown. So your monastery idea has merit, including the part involving the actual form of the monastery as a walled fortresses, as they were during the previous dark age. Also, the monks of old (both European and Oriental) often found it necessary to be skilled in armed (or un-armed) combat, so you chose a good parallel. <br /><br />A slight tangent: As my signature states, I live in Bucks County, PA, and one of its treasures is the Mercer Museum. Too make a long story short, around the turn of the century (i.e., 1900), a true scholar and scientist saw that many of the pre-industrial tools were being discarded, and collected an enormous amount of them in his “Mercer Museum”. Since I think both this blog and Kunstler’s are correct, and we are going back to “a world made by hand”, this building, which is probably the largest collection of pre-industrial tools in the world, is of critical importance. (Web site: http://www.mercermuseum.org/museum_collections.htm). I am reminded that after the fall of Sadaam, one of the many tragedies that occurred in Iraq was that most of the museums, housing very ancient works of art, were looted, and many of the objects were destroyed or lost. Maybe my biggest contribution to the Leibowitz society (and to the future of humanity) is to do my best to see that the Mercer Museum doesn’t fall to similar looting/destruction.<br /><br />Continued in post below ...<br /><br />Scott in Bucks CountyScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16884723062590952056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post-66142316571857869722010-11-23T11:58:09.223-08:002010-11-23T11:58:09.223-08:00Thank you for the honor of your response! Sorry f...Thank you for the honor of your response! Sorry for my delay in replying, but given the honor of such a direct communication from you, I put some time into my response below.<br /><br />You are correct in reminding all of us “preppers” that we could be facing a very slow motion collapse, lasting years and maybe decades (I tend to lean towards the shorter end of this range, but could very well be wrong). It could even occur after our lifetimes are over.<br /><br />On the issue of how the gathered information is stored, I have some “negative” or cautionary experience to relate: I have been in a computer-related job for 20+ years, and have seen many “platforms” come and go. Near the end of a platform or operating systems life, lots of work is expended to make sure that in the future, one can go back and retrieve information off of the “legacy system” – and here is the rub – in the few times when an attempt is subsequently made to retrieve information off of a legacy system, I have yet to see it work. NEVER SEEN IT WORK! And so there lies the downside of using digital media as your sole storage device, especially if the dark age last decades, …<br /><br />Continued in post below ...<br /><br />Scott in Bucks CountyScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16884723062590952056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post-28163906417697788112010-11-23T11:47:57.215-08:002010-11-23T11:47:57.215-08:00Thank you for the honor of your response! Sorry f...Thank you for the honor of your response! Sorry for my delay in replying, but given the honor of such a direct communication from you, I put some time into my response below.<br /><br />You are correct in reminding all of us “preppers” that we could be facing a very slow motion collapse, lasting years and maybe decades (I tend to lean towards the shorter end of this range, but could very well be wrong). It could even occur after our lifetimes are over.<br /><br />On the issue of how the gathered knowledge should be stored on, as a computer-programmer by day, I have some “negative” or cautionary experience to relate to all: I have seen many “platforms” come and go. Near the end of a platform or operating systems life, lots of work is expended to make sure that in the future, one can go back and retrieve information off of the “legacy system” – and here is the rub – in the few times when an attempt is subsequently made to retrieve information off of a legacy system, I have yet to see it work. NEVER SEEN IT WORK! And so there lies the downside of using digital media as your sole storage device, especially if the dark age last decades, …<br /><br />While I am probably getting way ahead of where we should spend our time (i.e., you are correct that most of our efforts should be spent gathering the info ), your answer to my question of “Should we gather post- or during-the-crash?” was interesting. I think your Monastary idea makes the most sense, since it really is “tried and true” – i.e., the previous dark age. <br /><br />Let us face it – there are very few of us “Like-minded people” - 99.999% of Americans would think we were nuts, and would screamingly red-in-the-face insist that we are “nuts” … right up until the collapse (and maybe after). Indeed, there may be blowback against those who had seen it coming and had prepared, with we few being illogically accused of wishing for or even causing the breakdown. So your monastery idea has merit, including the part involving the actual form of the monastery as a walled fortresses, as they were during the previous dark age. Also, the monks of old (both European and Oriental) often found it necessary to be skilled in armed (or un-armed) combat, so you chose a good parallel. <br /><br />A slight tangent: As my signature states, I live in Bucks County, PA, and one of it’s treasures is the Mercer Museum. Too make a long story short, around the turn of the century (i.e., 1900), a true scholar and scientist saw that many of the pre-industrial tools were being discarded, and collected an enormous amount of them in his “Mercer Museum”. Since I think both this blog and Kunstler’s are correct, and we are going back to “a world made by hand”, this building, which is probably the largest collection of pre-industrial tools in the world, is of critical importance. (Web site: http://www.mercermuseum.org/museum_collections.htm). I am reminded that after the fall of Sadaam, one of the many tragedies that occurred in Iraq was that most of the museums, housing very ancient works of art, were looted, and many of the objects were destroyed or lost. Maybe my biggest contribution to the Leibowitz society (and to the future of humanity) is to do my best to see that the Mercer Museum doesn’t fall to similar looting/destruction.<br /><br />Thank you again,<br /><br />Scott in Bucks CountyScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16884723062590952056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6702659934448838326.post-9679750275345561052010-11-23T11:44:37.434-08:002010-11-23T11:44:37.434-08:00Thank you for the honor of your response!
You a...Thank you for the honor of your response! <br /><br />You are correct in reminding all of us “preppers” that we could be facing a very slow motion collapse, lasting years and maybe decades. The complete collapse could even occur after our lifetimes are over.<br /><br />On the issue of what form that the gathered knowledge should be stored upon, as a computer-programmer for 20+ years, I have a cautionary tale: I have seen many “platforms” and "systems" come and go. Near the end of a platform or operating systems life, lots of work is expended to make sure that in the future, one can go back and retrieve information off of the “legacy system” – and here is the rub – in the few times when an attempt is subsequently made to retrieve information off of a legacy system, I have yet to see it work. And so there lies the downside of using digital media as your sole storage device, especially if the dark age last decades, …<br /><br />While I am probably getting way ahead of where we should spend our time (i.e., you are correct that most of our efforts should be spent gathering the info ), your answer to my question of “Should we gather post- or during-the-crash?” was interesting. I think your Monastary concept/idea makes the most sense, since it really is “tried and true” – i.e., the previous dark age. <br /><br />Let us face it – there are very few of us “Like-minded people” - 99.999% of Americans would think we were nuts, and would screamingly red-in-the-face insist that we are “nuts” … right up until the collapse (and maybe after). Indeed, there may be blowback against those who had seen it coming and had prepared, with we few being illogically accused of wishing for or even causing the breakdown. So your monastery idea has merit, including the part involving the actual form of the monastery as a walled fortresses, as they were during the previous dark age. Also, the monks of old (both European and Oriental) often found it necessary to be skilled in armed (or un-armed) combat, so you chose a good parallel. <br /><br />A slight tangent: As my signature states, I live in Bucks County, PA, and one of it’s treasures is the Mercer Museum. Too make a long story short, around the turn of the century (i.e., 1900), a true scholar and scientist (Henry Mercer) saw that many of the pre-industrial tools were being discarded, and collected an enormous amount of them in his “Mercer Museum”. Since I think both this blog and Kunstler’s are correct, and we are going back to “a world made by hand”, this building, which is probably the largest collection of pre-industrial tools in the world, is of critical importance. (Web site: http://www.mercermuseum.org/museum_collections.htm). I am reminded that after the fall of Sadaam, one of the many tragedies that occurred in Iraq was that most of the museums, housing very ancient works of art, were looted, and many of the objects were destroyed or lost. Maybe my biggest contribution to the Leibowitz society (and to the future of humanity) is to do my best to see that the Mercer Museum doesn’t fall to similar looting/destruction.<br /><br />Thank you again,<br /><br />Scott in Bucks CountyScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16884723062590952056noreply@blogger.com